The Green They Steal, The Greed They Wear
A St. Patrick’s Day Lament
by Michael Moore
Friends,
It was amazing. Every story on the front page of Monday’s New York Times told the story of the Age of Greed during which a system known as capitalism is slowly, but surely, killing us:
Insurance company greed: “Millions Spent to Sway Democrats on Health Care”
War profiteers: “Contractors Tied to Effort to Track and Kill Militants”
There’s no profit in repairing our infrastructure: “Repair Costs Daunting as Water Lines Crumble”
China, the bank: “China Uses Rules on Global Trade to Its Advantage”
You mean NAFTA didn’t improve life in Mexico: “Two Drug Slayings in Mexico Rock US Consulate”
What happens when Big Food profits from hurting kids: “Forget Goofing Around: Recess Has New Boss”
There’s now a daily parade of news like this — well, not really “news,” more like the media division of large corporations shoving your face into the dirt that is your life. You already know the schools are a disaster and the war is a boon for the Halliburtons and a bust for you. You don’t need a newspaper to tell you the roads and electrical lines and the local sewage plant is in miserable disrepair.
And by now you’ve figured out that you don’t really have any say in this, that what we call the “democratic process” is mostly a sham, pretty words that get repeated in the hopes we will all still fall for it. But the fix is in and we don’t fall for it anymore. Admit it: Wall Street owns “our” Congress lock, stock and big barrel o’ campaign cash. You want a say in this? Well, I don’t see you on the Forbes 400, so shut the f@*& up and go fetch me another bottle of bubbly.
Within days, the House of Representatives will vote to pass the Senate health care “reform” bill. This bill is a joke. It has NOTHING to do with “health care reform.” It has EVERYTHING to do with lining the pockets of the health insurance industry. It forces, by law, every American who isn’t old or destitute to buy health insurance if their boss doesn’t provide it. What company wouldn’t love the government forcing the public to buy that company’s product?! Imagine a bill that ordered every citizen to buy the extended warranty on all their appliances? Imagine a law that made it illegal not to own an iPhone? Or how ’bout I get a law passed that makes it compulsory for every American to go see my next movie? Woo-hoo! Who wouldn’t love a sweet set-up like this windfall?
Well, the insurance companies — get this — don’t like the Democrats’ bill! That alone should be reason enough to vote for it.
Now, you would think these thieves would love this bill — but they are actually fighting it. Why? Because it doesn’t give them ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of the what they want. It only gives them… 90%! YOU SEE, pure greed demands all or nothing.
The insurance industry hates this bill because it puts a few minor restrictions on them. Six months after its passage they won’t be able to deny children coverage if they have a pre-existing condition. How awful! Government interference! SOCIALISM!
But, hey, they’ll still be able to deny these children’s parents coverage until 2014! So if a parent gets sick and dies in the next four years, I’m sure someone will step in and raise these already-insured orphans.
And how big will the fines be if the insurance companies do deny someone coverage for having a pre-existing condition? Are you sitting down? A hundred dollars a day! That’s it! So if you’re the insurance company, and Judy is a customer of yours, and Judy needs an operation that will cost $100,000, what do you do? You take the fine! Let’s say Judy lives another year after you’ve sentenced her to death, your $100-a-day fine will only cost you $36,500! That’s a savings of $63,500! And trust me, my friends, that’s EXACTLY what’s going to happen.
There are some good things in this bill. Parents will be able to keep their children on their policy until the kids turn 26. A few things like that. So, yes, pass that.
But don’t insult me and 300 million Americans by calling this “health care reform.” At least you’ve stopped calling it “universal health care.” We will not have universal health care or anything close to it. I wish the president and the Democratic leadership would just stand up and say, “We’re sorry, America. We didn’t get the job done you sent us here to do. We’re weak and scared and unable to communicate the simplest of messages to the American people. Therefore, our bill will guarantee that 12 million of you will still have NO health insurance. And that’s because we have decided to leave the greedy, private insurance industry in charge of our system. Forgive us for this and for continuing to allow profit to be the determining factor as to whether a patient gets the help she or he needs.”
Please, Democrats — just say that — then pass this poor excuse of a bill. Pass it because, if President Obama takes a fall on this one, I don’t know if he’ll be able to get back up. And then NOTHING will get done. We can’t have that. (And thank you Dennis Kucinich for hanging in there right up to the end and being the only one out of the 435 members to speak the awful truth.)
On the front page of yesterday’s New York Times, the dateline was, sadly, once again, “Flint, Michigan.” The story was about how doctors are no longer accepting Medicaid patients. Which means tens of thousands of poor can no longer go to the doctor. Last year, the State of Michigan also prohibited doctors from accepting Medicaid patients who had anything wrong with their vision, their hearing, their feet or their teeth. In a 16-county area northwest of Flint, there will soon be not one single hospital that will allow you to give birth there if you’re on Medicaid. The official unemployment rate in Flint is 27% (unofficially, closer to 40%).
This is an American tragedy. And, as I’ve warned you for years, this tsunami is heading your way — if it’s not there already.
I’ve just turned on my new iPhone and it informs me that it has “apps” it would like to suggest I buy. One is called “Scanner.” It will allow me to listen in on police scanners anywhere across the country. I buy the app. I see that the Flint police scanner is part of this. I turn it on out of curiosity. And this is what I hear, at one in the morning: A woman is being beaten by her husband… A home invasion is taking place (“16-year-old black male, wearing a white skull cap”)… A child has been missing since noon today… Another woman is being beaten by her boyfriend… A diabetic, obese man is having trouble breathing and needs to be rushed to the hospital (there will be three more of these obese diabetics in the hours to come; the entire town is ill)… One more woman calling, screaming for help, “officers urged to use caution…”
…And on and on and on. This is what I have listened to before going to bed. I am filled with despair and helplessness as I hear my former neighbors crying out for help. I hate it. I have to turn it off. I start to cry. Thank you, iPhone. Thank you, Democrats. I’ll sleep better knowing that you’re looking out for all of us.
Bastards.
Michael Moore
MMFlint@aol.com
MichaelMoore.com
P.S. I’ll continue my jihad today on Dylan Ratigan (MSNBC, 4pm ET) and, for the first time together in the same studio since our, um, 2007 debate, I’ll join Wolf Blitzer live in his CNN Studio (5-8pm, ET). I’ll also be on live for the entire 11am hour this morning on the wonderful Diane Rehm Show on NPR. You can listen live online here.
The rest of the day I’ll spend wandering the halls of Congress with my shillelagh and shamrocks, doing my best impersonation of St. Patrick as I try to drive the snakes out of Capitol Hill. Wish me luck…
Here is a comment from Common Dreams I wanted to post here.
charlesthegreen March 17th, 2010 2:11 pm
Nice of him, to give us an email link. This is what I just sent him (as I remember it):
I don’t suppose I can expect an answer, Michael, but please: how long can you keep on denouncing the Democrats as corrupt corporate shills before you jump ship and take your many admirers with you to the Green Party, who are at least honest?
And, also please: cut the “spineless” schtick. Spineless politicians don’t defy their constituents in favor of their corporate funders, as the Democrats are doing (even Dennis – et tu, Brute?). Pretty gutsy, for crooks.
The real problem is spineless voters and activists, who don’t have the guts to vote their own self-interest, let alone their values.
What about you, Michael?
Here is another comment.
clearcut-climate March 17th, 2010 1:38 pm
Time to start a Secessionist Party?
The time for reform of any US government entity and corporation is over. It’s beyond redemption.
It is long overdue to allow states through citizen’s initiatives, like Canadian provinces, to secede if they so choose if the fed gov’t doesn’t clean up their act and abolish multi-national corporations.
How about those who have the guts start a “Secessionist Party” in each state?
Enjoy your St. Patrick’s day freedom while you still have it.
The day has come for Progressives in the Democratic Party to think about joining the honest Green Party. When is Michael More and others joining the Green Party? Why do they continue to be part of a Party that is just as corrupted as the Republicans? What happen to working together as Americans to get Bills passed that help the American people instead of hurting them somemore?
We should be sending that Bill back to the table to work on until we got it right. This game of passing a bad Bill just to say you have passed something is WRONG !!!!!! We should be putting the American people first over Corporations.
Someone on Common Dreams made a good point that got me thinking. That it isn’t so much that they lack courage and backbone to fight but that they have a goal and are achieving that goal. Those might not be the exact words but that was the thought I got out of his words. There is some truth in this. Why do Progressives continue to be part of the problem by continuing to stay in a party that is not part of the real solution this country needs. I know I sound passionate all the time for the Green Party, but I truly feel that they are the most honest party.
I don’t know about anyone else but I want a new party. I would like to see a group of people in Washington that actually care about what the American people want…you know…Of the people, for the people and by the people. I just love Glen Beck. I agree with just about everything he say’s . He is well versed and spot on as far as I am concerned. I believe our founding fathers came here to escape the persecution that we are facing now. Not just religious persecution but persecution because we believe we should honor our Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. Then there’s all this hype about Separation of Church and State. I believe the founding fathers came up with that not to keep religion out of government but to keep government out of religion. I think all but about 5 or 6 of the signers of the Declaration were devout Christians. I think they would all agree that we need prayer in our school. I mean look what has happened since we have taken prayer and God out of our schools…Its going to Hell in a hand basket. Look at the violence our children are facing from their peers across the USA. This just shouldn’t be…
I think the current administration is probably made up of the most corrupt people that have ever held public office and for this president to sign in to effect on his very first day the funding of our tax dollars to pay for abortions on foreign soil,WOW!!!! He and his administration clearly have no interest in what the majority of Americans want. I think B.O. will go down in history as the most arrogant, dishonest, immoral man ever to sit in the oval office. I can’t even listen to him anymore, he nauseates me, and make no mistake…it has nothing to do with the color of his skin. It has every thing to do with the color of his heart. I think this is what is meant when someone is referred to as a “blackhearted ——-” It has nothing to do with race. It is said “Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.” and he has spoken volumes.
For me, I think we should feel blessed to live on Gods green earth and we should be good stewards over what we have been given. I think going green to a certain extent is a good thing. I do believe we should be allowed to drill for oil, here in the USA. There are plenty of ways we can do that without destroying the environment. I think God put natural resources on this earth for us to use, as long as we do it responsibly. If we are going to cut down tree’s then we should be clearing the land and planting more. If we are going to mine for gold, then mine for gold but don’t leave all of our trash behind. We should clean up after ourselves and leave the mountain the way we found her, as John Houston put it in the Treasure of the Sierra Madre,LOL…If we don’t want giant snakes taking over Florida then it should not be legal to buy and sell them here. When people break the law the punishment should fit the crime. If the court knows for a FACT a grown adult did something evil to a child they should be taken to the public square and shot. Think of the hundreds of thousands of dollars we could save in tax dollars by just doing that.
I know I ramble on at times but I just get all fired up. I think if this nation got back to the basics of God and Country, and looked at things more the way our Founding Fathers did we could once again be a great nation. I’m sorry Chrisy, I’m not progressive at all. I think progressive is just another term used to describe a Liberal, and to me Liberals are a lot like Communists and Marxists.
Anyway…Take care,and its fun to talk to you…Katie
Dear Katie,
I am always glad when you comment. I ramble too, so don’t ever feel bad. It is part of being a woman I think, for us to talk what is in our hearts. Women can be more emotional than men, and I am one woman who is not afraid to say that. LOL.
We might be looking at things from a different political view, but we are both good Christian women who want to do the right thing. When I was in the NSDAR we believed in God, Country, and Family. From your post I would say you believe that too. You also have a love and respect for the environment. I can tell from your comments that you believe that part of our Christian faith is to be good caregivers of the earth. I tend to be one who likes to focus with what I have in common with people.
Yes, to some people Prgressive is just another term for a Liberal. Though I consider myself a Progressive but not a Liberal. Some might ask how can one do that? I think it has something to do with my defination of what a Progressive is. To me a Progressive is wanting to move into the 21st century, much like Teddy Roosevelt who was a Progressive Republican wanted to take the country into the 20th century. A Progressive can be in either political party.
Sometimes I think the word Progressive has been hijacked and if one doesn’t agree with every single point that other Progressives think makes one Progressive they are attacked. That is wrong. I think the most important part of being a Progressive is having a true open mind and be able to look at things from all perspectives before making one’s mind up. Wanting to move the country into the 21st century and embracing renewable energy sources so we don’t have to be so dependent on foreign oil from our enemies who hate us.
Our nation is going bankrupt with all this debt. I feel a true Progressive will fight for the children who are inheriting a debt they will never be able to pay off. Yet, how many Progressives are brave enough to tell the truth about the true condition of this nation that we love is in? Katie, I am a member of the Green Party so I don’t have a horse in the race between the Democrats and Republicans, but I get equally as angry with the Democratic Party as I do with the Republican Party. They both put what is best for their own party over what is best for the country and the American people. I believe in truth, but I am begining to question if the Congress or President even value truth. This is not the first time I have asked that question. The last time broke my heart when I realized that truth, justice, and a true and loyal friend didn’t mean anything.
Yes, I agree this country is in trouble. It is on a sucide path and those in power who could save us DON’T CARE ENOUGH FOR THIS NATION AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE TO EVEN FIGHT.
You say you like Glen Beck. My mother likes Bill O’Reilly and Glen Beck, but she likes Bill better. She gets all her information from Fox News. She is a good Conservative Republican who many times sounds just like David Duke who is also a Republican. In today’s terms she would be a White Nationalist, though she considers herself a good Republican.
Glen Beck is a man who uses humor to make his point. He shocks people with the humor he uses to make those points. Many Progressives think he is insane and that the men in white coats will take him away someday. They would consider him about equal to Sarah Palin, who many of us consider a big joke. She is not qualified to be President and because she didn’t finish her term as gov. I will add she is a quiter as well. I would have had more respect for her as a woman if she had finished her term. Do I think she was treated fairly? No, I think some of the attacks on her children were uncalled for? I think the choice of her on the ticket really hurt McCain.
I listen to a show called Ring of Fire. One of the reasons I like to listen to that show is that I am free to say what I think even when I don’t agree with all that is said. I do have an open mind and I think about what is discussed. I find the men who host that show very interesting and educated men on the issues. As I said I don’t always agree with them and when I feel they are attacking Christians unfairly I speak up and defend us. I feel I have a right to defend my church and our beliefs. Ring of Fire has become a very important tool on educating me on the issues that are facing America today.
I didn’t vote for Obama as President. There were several reasons. One, He didn’t earn my respect or vote. 2. He is pro abortion. 3. He wasn’t worth my going against my church for.
As a Catholic in the Phoenix area with the Bishop I live under I could not vote for the Democrat candidate and still remain a Catholic in good standing. The choices were vote for Obama and be in sin, vote Republican because John McCain was an acceptable candidate for the Bishop, or throw away my vote by writing someone in or voting third party. I chose to follow the directives of my Bishop and chose to remain a Catholic in good standing.
I believe as you do that Seperation between State and Church is also there to protect the church from the State telling them what they have to believe as a church or who they have to marry in their church. I for one am happy that the Catholic Church considers marriage as a sacrament. I think it is one of the most important sacraments there are. Married Catholics play an very important role by having families and teaching them Catholic values so that we stand up for what is morally right in the world.
I hope there never comes a day when the state tells the Catholic Church that they must marry a couple who they do not think is a valid couple or that the marriage is a good thing for both parties involved. In the Catholic Church it used to be 6 months prepartion before Catholics could be married in the church. I think in Phoenix under our Bishop it is now a year.
At the same time the church should not tell the state (that includes more people than just Catholics/Christians). We have all different kinds of races, religions, political views, and some people fall in love with someone of the same sex. It is not for me to judge them for who they fall in love with. I would never judge anyone else for their behavior, because I don’t want to be judged either. I would hope that if two gay Catholics wanted to get married that they could marry in a civil ceremony outside the church. That they would respect the church enough not insist that the church marry them.
I guess I am bring homosexuals getting married again because it is an important issue of our time and I am trying to decide how I feel about this issue. So I hope people will allow me the time to really look at this issue from both sides and think and pray over it.
One person who I am beginning to think might be a good person believes that homosexual marriage is a Civil Rights Issue. I am still thinking about that. A Black person is born Black and it is not a choice. I know some people say one is born Gay like a Black person is born Black and should have equal rights to marry the person they love. It is a valid point. The church as I understand it in the booklet my Bishop printed before the last election to help Catholics decide who to vote for and what to vote for had the topic of homosexual marriage.
Here is a quote from a pamplet I picked up at church.
” The Catholic Church teaches that marriage as God has instituted it, is a faithful, exclusive, lifelong covenant. The permanent union of one man and one woman joined through a mutual giving of themselves. In Marriage a husband and wife commit themselves totally, not only to each other but also to the responsibility of bringing children into the world and caring for them.”
My first thought as I read that quote was what about Catholics who are older and passed child bearing years but find someone they love and want to marry later in life. I wondered if an older couple could be married in the Catholic Church because they couldn’t bring more children into the world so if it excempted Gays for marrying because they couldn’t bring children in the world, wouldn’t it exclude older people who fall in love late in life and want to marry? So I wonder if like a Gay couple, if an older couple has to marry in a civil ceremony?
Christians like to say that homosexuals aren’t born homosexual and are conditioned to be homosexual. I think there is a little truth in that statement as well. I don’t know how small the percentage is of people who are Gay are Gay because they think it is cool in this day and age? I also don’t know the percentage of people who were born Gay and it is not a choice.
For me the issue is that two people who love each other and want to marry should be allowed to have a state cermony. I feel strongly that the church should not be forced to marry people who they feel is not a valid Catholic marriage.
I have always respected the Catholic Church. Though with all the sexual abuse and Bishops not dealing with the Priests who were guilty of this crime it gets hard sometimes to respect the church. There are still good priests and should not be branded just because of the few bad apples. I keep on praying that God will weed out the bad ones and that they will be expelled from the Catholic Church and punished for their crimes. I do believe that the Judgement of God is beginning with the church. It isn’t only the Catholic Church that has had Pastors having sex, as the sexual scandals have been in the Protestant churches as well. Right now we are focusing on the Catholic Church because of what happen in Ireland.
Katie, I really enjoy talking to you. I hope you will be like Garfield and join the conversion between normal people who see what is going on in the world and just trying to make sense of it all. You have a good heart and you love Jesus very much, as I do too. The most important thing to us is to be living as Christ would want us to live in this world. When people see us we want them to see Christ living in us.
God Bless
Chrisy
If gods creation was create in perfection and all that was created was prefect of god at the time, it cannot be said that men are born gay, that would imply that god erred in his creation. Now to assume error is to call into question the omnipotence of god which again would fly against any xtian beliefs, no men choose to act in the manner they do, either by their domineering mothers, sexual abuse or personality flaw. There can be no justification of gay unions whether civil or religious, its just plain unnatural.
Garfield, thank you for your comment.
So if I am reading your comment right than you are saying it is unnatural for men to love men or women to love women. I have to wonder if you and I feel it is unnatural because we are straight. For me I was born wanting to love and be with a man. It is normal for me as a woman to want a strong, smart, honorable man. For you as a man it is natural and normal for you to want to be with a good, strong, and a good helpmate. For us who are born straight, it is unnatural.
Do we have a right to treat others who are different than us with hate and denying them the same right as we who are straight have?
I am glad we are discussing this issue because it is one that I have to make up my mind on what side of the debate I am going to support. As a Catholic, I want to look at what the church teaches. That is why I picked up the material from my church. Yet, I read that and the way it is written doesn’t answer the question of do we as human beings have the right to deny other human beings to marry who they happen to fall in love with?
I would like to see the percentage of gays who are born that way and those who were made gay by something that happen to them or being conditioned to be with one of the same sex?
First and foremost I am a Catholic and I want to try and stay true, but sometimes I wonder if the church has moved so far to the right? I know others who feel it moved to far to the left?
Still some more research to do on this topic.
Thanks for posting your thoughts.
Chrisy
Chrisy,
Since I believe that God creates each and every person that is born, I can not accept the thought that anyone is “born gay” I know you have heard the secular saying ” God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve” I believe there are plenty of Biblical references speaking against homosexuality. I just wanted to share a few below:
# Leviticus 18:22 – You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.
# Leviticus 20:13 – If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their blood guiltiness is upon them.
# Romans 1:26-27 – For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
# I Corinthians 6:9(NIV) – Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
I believe we are living in the Dispensation of Grace which could only occur after the death and resurrection of Christ.
Only Calvary’s cross could open up the fountain of God’s grace. Because Christ died on the cross the overflowing grace of God is able to pour out to sinners. If Christ had not died on the cross then God would not be able to be kind and gracious towards us. Instead God would need to JUDGE US FOR OUR SINS and condemn each of us to hell. The good news is that Jesus died for us and God is completely satisfied that the penalty for sin has been paid in full. Therefore God is free to pour out His grace and kindness and love towards those who believe on His Son.
My only thought about any sin is that if the person dies in their sin, according to the Bible they will go to Hell. I just don’t like the thought of that happening to anyone, although I feel that God has done more than enough to give us a way out.
So my thought in a nutshell is :
God did not create anyone gay. People choose this of their own accord.
The church should not condone Homosexuality, because it is an abomination to God.
Anyone who chooses Jesus can be delivered from Homosexuality just as they can be delivered from any other addiction or perversion.
God does not hate the Homosexual, he loves them just as he loves us but he requires that they turn from their sin just as we have been required to turn from ours.
Before I was saved, I was living in sin. One of my many sins was fornication (sexual immorality).If I would have died before I asked Jesus to be my Savior I would have gone to Hell. All of the thoughts that I express are based on what the Word of God says. I don’t expect everyone to agree with me, and I don’t judge those who disagree, but I exercise my right to believe the way I choose to believe.
This is a very deep subject and I know to some it is hurtful, although I am not making these statements to hurt anyone. I feel as disciples or soldiers of God we have been given a mission if you will to not only walk in love for our fellow man but also to preach the Gospel, to inform mankind of all of Gods views not just the ones that make us feel comfortable. If we don’t tell people the truth then their blood will be on our hands when we stand before God.
As always Chrisy, I hope you are well. I hope your neck is better and your pain is gone. Your sis in Christ…Katie
That was a big nutshell, wasn’t it?….LOL
Katie,
Thank you for your comment. You do have a right to your own thoughts and freedom of speech. I know your heart is not to hurt anyone.
We are all sinners. I don’t think there is a perfect person alive on this earth today. I have made so many stupid mistakes. Yet, Jesus knows our hearts and he forgives us when we go to him and say I am sorry and I will try to do better in future. Confession is a very important sacrament.
I will think about your comment and will answer tomorrow. I am listening to a radio show and I really want to think about what you said before answering.
I will say this that I believe God through the gospels teaches us to be and fight for social justice. He wants us to take care of the poor, the young, the aged, the sick, and seek to do good in the world. Yet, I see some Christians who want to ignore the gospels where Jesus tells us fight for social justice and want to turn God into only a God of judgment. Why do some people want to focus more on the judgment part of God than the Love and compassion?
God Bless you
Chrisy
Katie, your brand of xtianity is the Born agian type? That fundamantalist right?
Just asking so I know your dogma and can respond accordingly.
I agree with your thoughts about gays, maybe not the religious side but to me it is wrong.
“I am glad we are discussing this issue because it is one that I have to make up my mind on what side of the debate I am going to support. As a Catholic, I want to look at what the church teaches. That is why I picked up the material from my church. Yet, I read that and the way it is written doesn’t answer the question of do we as human beings have the right to deny other human beings to marry who they happen to fall in love with?”
Chrisy, homosexuality has little to do with church teachings or moral values. Its about plain and simple biology, and two men cannot reproduce yet a man and a woman can. So why would two men want to ‘love each other’ if not to reproduce? But they can’t!
Even the animal kingdom shows us the ways things should be. The thought of it is too disgusting, and not its not about hating anyone, that word is thrown around so generously. How do we ever hope to save the white race if we have homosexuals in our society who contribute a negative effect to our population register. I don’t have an answer what to do with them either. Perhaps this is something I can blame the jews for too? (lol)
Garfield, I am glad you commented on this issue. I don’t know all the answers I am just seeking to do the right thing. I am a traditional Catholic woman that is just trying to do the best I can in this life. Of course to you and me that thought of falling in love with someone of the same sex turns our stomachs. I am a normal woman and you are a normal man. You married a good woman and had beautiful children and I hope to meet my Prince Charming someday.
My question is that if God loves everyone and died for everyone than doesn’t he love and save homosexals too? I do not think the Catholic Church or any Christian church should be forced to marry them or to change their teachings. My question is should the state that is seperate from the church be allowed to marry Gays?
That pamplet from the church didn’t answer my question it just confused me more and makes me wonder if older Catholics who can’t have children or young Catholics who can’t have children are welcome to marry in the church because children can not be the product of that marriage. Even though the bride is a woman and the groom a man they can’t produce children. So if you deny Gays the right to marry because children can’t be produced than doesn’t that mean that older couples and people who can’t have children will be refused to marry in the Catholic Chruch? I dreamed all my life of the kind of wedding I would have if I ever met the right man for me who saw all through the crap and lies and found the truth of who I really am in my heart and loved me anyway. I wanted a Celtic Wedding with the tartan’s and bagpipes.
To say that Gays are to be denied marriage because they can’t produce children in a valid marriage, I think leaves out a man/woman couple who for some reason children can not be a product of that marriage. That couple could always adopt children but Gays adopt children too. So what is the difference between an older man/woman couple who can’t have children and a two men couple who adopt kids? I think the Catholic Church needs to do a better job of explaining this issue to me. I am not understanding their opposition to Gay marriage.
I like animals very much Garfield. I do understand that in the animal world boy animals like to mate with girl animals and it is the normal and natural way. So what do we do with people who are born like people of the same sex? Do we treat them like criminals because they are different?
All my life Garfield I have been different. I have payed a high price for being different and not just accepting what is taught to me as truth. I have been treated with harsh anger and hate my whole life, misunderstood, misjudged, and talked about with lies that are passed for truth. I know what it is like to pay the heavy price to be true to who you are as a person. I can’t condone that treatment toward another human being. I will not treat others the way I have been treated in life. God tells me to love and forgive and that is what I have always strived to do. Sometimes it is hard to forgive, forget and trust that person again who hurt you and mistreated you.
I don’t know what the answer is but whatever it is that I feel that God would not want us to treat other people with hate.
“My question is that if God loves everyone and died for everyone than doesn’t he love and save homosexuals too? I do not think the Catholic Church or any Christian church should be forced to marry them or to change their teachings. My question is should the state that is seperate from the church be allowed to marry Gays?”
Of course the state will marry gays, they are the ones who promote abortion, race mixing, multi culturalism, sexism, secular humanism and gay rights. How quickly didn’t Obama back down of the abortion issue, he saw that his backers are major medical companies. It won’t long before man can marry animals!
God may have loved everybody but he condemns it so clearly, those passages of Katie are clear and unambiguous. No reading them out of context or understanding the times they were written. Plain and simple its wrong, and for a church to sanction gays but no marry them is to say abortion is ok but don’t get caught by the church. Wrong is wrong.
The bible clearly says that a union is a man and a woman, something about a woman must leave her family and join her man. Gays can have a civil union, but in a church? Thats just plain heresy.
You are missing the point here, marriage is an institution instilled by god hence the church involvement. Now how can gays ‘marry’ in a church if it is contrary to church dogma? If you are a gay RC then you should lead a life of celibacy, how can you commit sodomy on Friday and be in church on Sunday?
What do we do with them you ask? Simple, we treat them with the dignity they deserve as people. After all what goes on behind closed doors is their business. I would not want two gay men sitting in church holding hands! How crazy would that be to normal people, next thing the church would be classified as a gay church. Many priests are openly gay(Not RC) methodist I think, this is heresy imo.
I do not condone hatred of any kind. My Christianity is based on what the Bible says. It clearly says ” Thou shalt not hate” but the Bible is very clear on what God thinks of any form of Sodomy. He abhors it. Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are one and they think as one. So if God is against anything then so is Jesus. But remember I am speaking of the act of homosexuality. God loves the Homosexual just like he loves Jesus and all of mankind, but he still considers their lifestyle a sin. God is not denying anyone Salvation but they must repent, they must turn from their sin, what ever it is. God does not change. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. The ideal that two people should not marry because they can’t reproduce is a little ludicrous to me. The Apostle Paul said he wished all were like him, single, but if you could not remain single without falling into lust, then by all means get married. I do not believe the Apostle Paul was referring to same sex marriage.
Chrisy, sometimes God will show us an answer but if we don’t like the answer then we just don’t think of it as coming from God. You are correct in saying God wants us to walk in love and he wants our life to be a testimony to him, but even Jesus told people they were to abide by the laws of God. I have given you scripture straight from the Bible that states clearly what God says about homosexuality. You may not like my answers but this is what God thinks according to the Bible.
Garfield, you ask me if I am a right winged born again fundamentalist, My view is this: If its in the Bible, I believe it and that settles it for me. I find the more time I spend in one on one prayer with God through the Holy Spirit and also studying the Word of God the more the eyes of my understanding are opened. Jesus told his disciples that he must go to the Father, because if he did not go to the Father then the Comforter could not come. The Comforter is the Holy Spirit. Jesus said he, the Comforter would lead us into all knowledge and understanding. So, I think I am about as far right as you can get. I do not believe in hate crimes and I do not think it is ok to murder people like Dr.Tiller the baby killer. I in no way think he should be murdering thousands of full term babies for profit, but it was not for any man to murder him. God would have dealt with him. I hope this gives you a better ideal of where I am coming from.
Katie and Garfield, thank you for your comments. You bring up some points that I will think about. I haven’t made my decision yet. There is still some confusion on what the Catholic church is teaching on this issue.
That pamplet I got at church didn’t help one bit, but made me more confused. If I go by what that pamplet says than I would not be able to marry in the church because I can’t have children. I don’t think the Catholic Church is trying to say that, but if they base their objection only because Gay marriages can’t produce children and having children is what makes a valid marriage; then Catholics who are trying to decide how they feel on this issue are going to be confused. The way that pamplet I got a church is written it makes it seem like I can’t be married in my own church because I can’t have children which is what the church is claiming the reason they can’t condone Gay marriage. I think the Catholic church can do better in getting out what the church’s position is on this issue.
Katie, I don’t think it is so much I don’t like God’s answer, I think it is more that for the first time in my life I am not told how to believe, what to say, and what to do. For many years Katie I was a parrot. First with Jeff in having to act in order to just survive. I couldn’t be myself so I I have always done I had a secret life. For my protection I did things in secret like take the kids to the river with my friend in her daughter so for the first time they could meet and play with other kids who were not in the cult. I took them to the Library and they learned to swim. For the first time in my step daughter’s life she got to decide the topics that she wanted to learn about. Then I was still a parrot after I left Jeff. Even though I had physcally left Jeff in 2000 he was still in my mind. It is just in the past few years that I have recovered enough to move foward with my life.
Now, for the first time in my life I must be the one to make the decision after wading through lots and lots of material, talking to people on both sides, and praying over it. Katie, in the end I always do what Jesus and Mary show me what they want me to do. There are Progressives and Democrats who have a strong Catholic faith and will not give in. I know you have heard of Bart Stupick from MI, and the other Pro life Catholic Democrats in the House who stood up for the unborn. I was right along with them in my heart cheering and hoping that they would find a way to make that Bill a Bill where a Catholic and Progressive could vote for. I am happy to say that those brave Catholic men and women got the President to give an order that abortion funding will not be in health care. Up until that announcement I had been a firm NO. Now because of the strong stand of Pro life Catholic Democrats Catholics can vote for that Bill and still be good Catholics. Now, I am a YES and think this will be a good thing all and all. It is only a start.
Katie, I know you don’t support Hate or the murder of Dr. Tiller. Every Cathoic who I talked to who is pro life didn’t approve of him being murdered. True Conservatives in this country are not evil racists who hate everyone. I know that. I will even say that sometimes those on the Left don’t understand and don’t take the time to do the research themselves before just making a judgment based on bad information which is not fair for the person be judged. The problem is that there are White Nationalists who are active in the Republican Party that some of the things that they are doing are because of hate toward others.
Let me say that I am a Progressives because to me the word means to move forward. I am a traditonal Catholic so on some issues I am conservative. I am pro life, and believe that abortion is an evil. I don’t consider myself a Liberal as I am not for all the things on their platform. The pro life issue is one issue that really divides me and other Progressives. I am proud of Rep. Bart Stupick and think he is a great man and other Progressives are angry and will target him. I just hope that the people in his district in MI support him and he will get all the Catholic vote. He stuck to his guns and achieved a Bill that Catholics can vote for and still be in good standing with the church.
Oh, I watched a part of Glen Beck. Katie, I do watch him from time to time. I usually do not get all the way through his show because I get really depressed and life is depressing enough without adding to my depression. I think he is a passionate man. Katie, I do not doubt for one minute that he loves this nation. In his heart he sees this country being destroyed and like anyone who sees all they love and care about being lost, they decide to fight to save it. He is a fighter. I am a fighter and many others are fighters. You and Garfield are fighters too. You both are fighting for what you believe in. People on both sides and of all political views are fighting to save this country going off the cliff that all of us see us heading for.
America is really divided and is getting more divided and that makes me very sad because my vision of this nation is that we are all Americans and that we are willing to work together and fight together for what is best for this country and for future generation of Americans. That America that I saw and loved when I was a very little girl under President Kennedy is gone. He is the first President I remember first hand and I like many people in this country loved him. He spoke about America working together to get a man on the moon, and we as a country achieved that vision and goal he had. He stood up for Civil Rights for all Americans to be treated as equals. He was smart and reasonable and savedAmerica in the fall of 1962.
Just because people have different political views doesn’t mean we have to hate each other. You see Katie I have lived with someone for the majority of my life who if I disgreed, went against their wishes, or being late for 15 minutes I wouldl get abused. I learned to pretend very good. I learned how to put on a fake smile. I learned how to survive, but the sad thing is I have never been able to live life or found any happiness or love.
Beck and O’Reilly present the Conservative side. Chris Matthews or Ring of Fire present the Progressive side. I like Ring of Fire. On the show yesterday Mike was talking about Glen Beck. Most progressives think he is a dangerous loon. I know I try to watch his show and I get so depressed because I don’t want to think about all the bad things that he says are coming down the pike. I know that our nation is treading on dangerous seas right now and we need brave, strong, and honorable men and women who are willing to fight and try and stop what is coming our way. I choose to focus on hope that there is time to save us and at the same time start getting the life boats ready incase we fail at our duty.
I really enjoy talking to both of you. We are just 3 normal people who are trying to make sense out of everything. Maybe we can show the world that people who are of such different political views can work and learn from each other.
I hope you all are having a nice Sunday.
God Bless you both
Chrisy
Katie, while you did provide Bible verses which I do read and consider. I will continue to pray to God to provide me the answer to how he would have me stand on the issue of gay marrage.
Dear Chrisy,
I am so happy for you and so proud of you that you freed yourself and your children from this Jeff character. No on has the right to dominate and abuse another person. So I say to you… Be strong in the Lord and the power of His might. I know…scripture again…lol. Thats just who I am.
I know what you mean about feeling sad when you watch Glen Beck. He is so very passionate about this nation. I think he is right on but I do have to skip his program some days because it does seem so overwhelming. I just always remind myself that God is in control and nothing ever catches him off guard. I have really had to fight a feeling of hopelessness today because I know this stupid HC bill is going to pass and I do not see it as a good thing. i think the goal of this administration is to destroy America as we now know it and transform it into something we will not like. It’s days like today that make me long for the RAPTURE!!!! I know I am being selfish….
I hope you are well and I hope you spend many many days down at the river with your family and your friends…Sincerely …Katie
P.S. Happy Resurrection Day..
Thank you Katie for you comment. I was able to free myself, but I was only the step mother so I had no legal right to the children, though I did try to help the little girl get out. I did learn that she lived 2 1/2 years with her grandparents when Jeff was in jail because of his work in the Christian Patriot group he was with. With her grandparents she did get to go to real school and a real church which Jeff wasn’t happy with. Last I heard she is at the community college taking courses which is something I never thought Jeff would let her do. I escaped before the raid. I do not know what happen to Jeff. I do not know what he is doing now and if he left all that evil thinking behind him and became a normal person. I don’t believe it though because he believed in Christian Identity and the Christian Patriot Movment so much. I just don’t think he would leave that behind him and is still doing the same thing he was doing when I was in OR, though maybe being more careful.
For a long time, I turned away from God, because I didn’t want to worship the same God he worshiped. A God of hate who only saved White people. A God who believed that women had no rights and were the slave to man. The God who believed that a man had a right to punish his woman if she displeased, disobeyed and would not give total submission. I could not submit and receive his God. That is why I would not let him re baptize me.
My God that I knew in the Catholic church was a loving God. He was a forgiving God who forgave us our sins. My God loved all people not just Whites. Yes, women are different than men, but our roles are just as important.
Jeff used to say rebellion was the sin of witchcraft and since I would not submit to him and accept his message that I was a witch and they burn witches. I knew that I had two choices. To stay and submit and get with the program or leave before he got rid of me. He was not going to keep me around when I was actively against what he believed and was doing.
I was very mixed up about who God really was because I had Jeff’s tapes going through my mind. There was a period of years where I was really wondering and would bounce back and forth between the Catholic Faith that I have always loved and considered a safe place as a child and the Pagan faith that didn’t judge me but accepted me and gave me the space to find my way back to the Catholic Church. My Pagan friends were the ones who healed my soul enough to allow God to bring me back to them.
As I was saying before Al Gore’s first book really helped me find my way back to God too. I read his book and the reasons why he fight for the environment and the earth. My friend just called so I will write more later, as I have some things I would like to say.
God Bless
Chrisy
Katie, I have a few minutes to continue to answer some of your questions.
” I know what you mean about feeling sad when you watch Glen Beck. He is so very passionate about this nation. I think he is right on but I do have to skip his program some days because it does seem so overwhelming. I just always remind myself that God is in control and nothing ever catches him off guard. I have really had to fight a feeling of hopelessness today because I know this stupid HC bill is going to pass and I do not see it as a good thing. i think the goal of this administration is to destroy America as we now know it and transform it into something we will not like. It’s days like today that make me long for the RAPTURE!!!! I know I am being selfish….” (Katie said)
Katie, I am sorry you are feeling hopeless, depressed, and sad because I feel the same way, though not for the reasons you stated. That is not a fun place to be. The thing the keeps me going in my faith. You are right to try and focus on our loving Father who is watching over us.
I know we don’t agree exactly on poltics but that is alright with me. I enjoy our talks and I think we are good Christian sisters.
You are not be selfish. I think about, when people say that about me That the truth always comes out. That thought has kept me going for years. Hope is really important and is what kept me going.
I have to go now, will finish later.
Chrisy
Chrisy, was Jeff part of the ‘Posse Comitatus’ or with William Gale?
Not too personal I hope?
Jeff was based in Boring, OR. He was with the Christian Patriot Group there in Boring. He was also a CI Pastor and had his church in the same area. There group to make money operated a Christian Patriot Book Store where White Nationalists, Christian Patriots, Conservatives, etc could find books that fueled their hate for the government, taxes, Jews, Catholics, Non Whites, etc. At the same time as having the book store they had their own little bank. Jeff didn’t tell me the details but people would invest money with them and they would get a number so that their dealings would be hidden. I think the raid on something to do with that end of the operation.
Yes, Jeff supported the Posse Comitatus and he worked with the Patriot court in Portland. I remember him talking about it with some other man who was in to that. William Gale is a name that sounds familar and I think Jeff admired him and had me read and watch a movie on him. I know that Richard was there when Ruby Ridge went down the way it did. They have not forgotten what happen to Vickie and Sam Weaver.
It has been 10 years since I left Jeff. I do not know what he is doing now after his jail time.
I have a new respect for you Chrisy, what you have endeared is truly remarkable and to flee was your only alternative. I think you and I could tells stories till the cows came home about the cards we have been dealt.
Apart from your politics I can honestly say that you are a fighter, survivor and honourable person. ( Don’t let that go to your head!lol)
Be well.
Katie, I have a question for you. How do you see your role as a white person within a US multicultural society and although you are an Xtian are you at all guided by your racial identity or is it purely a religious direction that you follow?
Garfield,
Thank you so much for your comment. You don’t know how much it means to me for you to say that. Yes, I think we both have come to respect the other person. Yes, I think we could share horror stories until the cow jumps over the moon, lol. I like to think it has only made us stronger than most people, which is why you and I are willing to FIGHT to protect what is important to us.
I also wanted to thank you for posting your comments here on my blog. You do make my life interesting and I enjoy the conversation. It gets very lonely and the internet is my only real social contact with the world. Still hoping that things will change on that front and that this time when I use my escape hatch that it will not again be going from the pan into the fire, lol.
Stay Well
Chrisy
Hi Garfield,
I do not believe that God loves me any more or less than any person of any race, regardless of their skin color. Because we all have two eyes, one nose, one mouth, ect… I feel we are all the same in Gods eyes. If I believe that I was made in the likeness and image of God, then for the most part I believe that I look like God…ie: arms, legs, head, ect…. regardless of skin color. I believe that God looks at the “color” of our heart not the color of our skin. The color of my skin does not make me special in Gods eyes, I believe that when God looks at me he sees the blood of Jesus, and because he sees me through the blood that Jesus shed for my sins, that’s what makes me special to God. There is a scripture in the bible that says something like…”It has been given to every man a measure of faith.” It doesn’t mention skin color. You know some people paint God as white, some people paint him as black, but I don’t see a color when I picture God in my minds eye. I see LIGHT. Does that make any sense? I know that sounds strange but that’s the only way I can describe what I see in my mind. I have met many people in my life time, many colors, many nationalities, I have found that there is love amongst all races of people just as there is hate . I do not believe these emotions are caused by the color of ones skin. I believe that hate is a seed that is planted in ones heart at some point and time that must be nurtured to keep it alive, the same holds true for love. It always comes back to what we choose to do. We can choose to love through Christ or we can choose to hate through Satan.I know that’s way to religious for you but that’s the only answer I can provide you with. I hope this has somehow answered your question. I know I can be long winded at times…lol…you have my profound apology.