Climate Crisis: What Would it Look Like to Do Everything We Can Imagine?
by Madeline Ostrander
Climate change is big, the biggest problem we’ve ever faced as a nation. In March, British economist Nicholas Stern said that inaction on climate change could cost the world one-third of its wealth. Last fall, the Global Carbon Project reported that world carbon emissions have risen and are in line with scientists’ worst, most catastrophic scenarios for climate change. Bill McKibben has said, “If we’re to have any chance of heading off catastrophic temperature increase, we have to do everything we can imagine.” How big are our imaginations? What would it look like to do everything we can imagine?
As Congressional leaders and the coal industry try to tell Americans what is and is not possible to do to protect our communities from the disasters of climate change, Obama needs to call on all of us to put our hands and our imaginations to work. It’s critical to have solid federal policy on climate change. But it’s also important to imagine what will become possible as we tackle this challenge. And it’s important for everyone to pitch in. That’s the only way we’ll solve a problem this large.
Obama has already ignited our imaginations, shaken up our sense of what is possible, and gotten us to consider the scope of the problems we face and our roles in solving them. In his November victory speech, he said, “I will ask you to join in the work of remaking this nation the only way it’s been done in America for 221 years-block by block, brick by brick, callused hand by callused hand.” He has brought people to his team like Van Jones, who ask us to consider the climate crisis as a vast opportunity to create green jobs: We’ll need millions of people to get to work, tackling the enormity of building a whole new sustainable economy. And for months Obama has been airing ads calling on us to serve our communities. It’s a start.
But there is more to do.
In the 1940s, the Roosevelt Administration called on Americans across the country to pitch in to the war effort, collect scrap metal, plant victory gardens. There was a “Don’t Travel” campaign to get people to conserve gasoline and tires for the war. And the country came together behind a common cause and mission. The people who weathered this national crisis have been called the “Greatest Generation.”
We have an opportunity to rise to greatness again. The crisis we face today is even larger than what our grandparents confronted. And it will take all of us planting our own gardens, conserving fuel and electricity, putting solar panels on our roofs, transforming our neighborhoods so we can walk and bike instead of drive, greening our buildings, and learning to save, recycle, and reuse.
Solutions will come from the grassroots, but it’s not enough to leave climate change to a handful of volunteers. And it’s not enough to leave a problem as dire as climate change to Congress alone. Obama needs to call on all of us, at every level. Our new president has more innate ability to inspire than perhaps any leader we’ve witnessed in decades. We’ve seen him call us to our best. It’s time for him to do it again.
The most important thing Obama can do is unite us in a common mission: to do everything we can imagine to fight climate change.
Oh shut up.
Nothing says, “I’m a political hack moron.” quite as quickly as bleating on about global warming.
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My comment:
I take it you don’t believe in climate change and global warming so you want me to shut up so you don’t have to hear about it.
Science supports those of us who believe in climate change and the coming effects. Why is your side of the climate change debate in denial?
I will be the first one to admit that I am not all that smart about the issues, but I am trying to learn. What is your excuse about being ignorant on this issue?
I am not shutting up so if you don’t want to read my blog than feel free to not read it, as I don’t want to burst your bubble and make you face the truth that you are living in your la la land of denial.
Have nice day
Chrisy
What’s my excuse?
Twenty years of hearing the same blowhard drivel.
You talk of science like it’s a monolith. Like global warming is built on a concrete foundation beyond questioning.
I have seen hundreds of reporters like you Chrisy,
fauning over false saviors. Never asking a skeptical question. And then admitting when pressed, you don’t know that much about it.
Then I have seen a few reporters who started out with your attitude, who did a little rudimentary digging, and ended up abandoning their climate change blog reports, because they couldn’t keep writing the slant that their editors insisted on with a clear conscious.
I’ve even found a reporter who started out credulous, investigated, found the science lacking, and preservered to write critically inspite of the editor’s wishes. (that’s a very rare bird – I only know of one)
You ever wonder why Gore avoids answering questions from reporters?
When are one of you newspeople going to ask him something more penetrating then “Is there any way I can thank you for saving the planet, Mr. Vice President?”
When will one of you put him on the spot, like I put you on the spot?
After all, that’s why they call you the press.
Because what you’re doing now isn’t journalism.
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My Comments:
First off, I am not a journalist or a reporter. I have never claimed I was with the Press. I have stated that if I could go to college that I would like to study journalism as I like to write and people tell me I have a natural gift and if I could go to college and be taught the things I needed to know to be a really good writer, and investigative reporter that I would be a good journalist.
Since I don’t believe in miracles anymore or that good things happen to me in this life, that dream of being a journalist will never happen. After years of just having to accept my fate in life, I am learning to make the most of what I have and not try to dream so much of a miracle happening and I have a chance to pursue my dream of being a real journalist.
second, I do see where people like you are being deceived to believe a lie, because people like Glen Beck and the other Right Wing/White Nationalist types choose to believe the so called corporate scienctists who are paid by the large corporations to lie to people. Time and time again, I post articles about this issue and the response is always the same denial or said to be a hoax to raise your taxes. They don’t seem to understand that we are already starting to see the effects of climate change.
Third, Have you read Al Gore’s book. I have and it woke me up to the problem and as I have been learning more about the topic of global warming and climate change, I have found that what he and other people who have been studying this issue for years is the truth. I have read many articles on this topic and have been posting them, and they are from sources such as British Newspapers who seem to have a much better understanding of the problem than a lot of the American media does. I just don’t know how you and others like you be in denial?
So who is really being brainwashed to believe a lie? I think the answer is you.
Actually yes I have read Gore’s book. (One of them. Which one are you refering to?)
I found it unsatisfying. He skips over whole swaths of history. Personal history, like when he promoted James Hansen, the chief climate alarmist at NASA. Pretty convenient, hand picking the guy in charge of creating the “official” line of physical evidence supporting your radical claims, then being able to promote that antiquated system of surface stations as the one and only truth.
Or how Gore was schooled on climate change financing for profit by the late Key Lay of Enron fame. Whole chapters left out.
For your information, my personal skepticism predates Glen Beck, not that I don’t appreciate his efforts, but it just worked out that way.
I do amateur astronomy. In 2005 I was looking at Jupiter and discovered it has two giant red spots instead of just the one.(Actually it has developed a third since then)
Massive climate change on Jupiter isn’t something easily faked.
It got me thinking, why didn’t the press report this? It rates a front page, but that story went without notice.
I checked out the other planets and found out there was climate change going on Mars. It’s a subtile melting of the polar ice caps which a civilian wouldn’t be able to detect in a backyard scope, but JPL has a satellite in orbit and people measuring the climate there.
Strangely, the Martian melt wasn’t reported beyond NASA’s website either.
On the JPL website, I discovered there is (was) global warming on Pluto (a ballooning atmosphere), climate change on Saturn which includes an ice moon in deep space with an active water geyser (should be impossible at 125 degrees Kelvin) and the rotational velocity of the ringed planet itself actually speeding up, making the days on Saturn shorter.
Everywhere I looked in the solar system, the planets (Uranus and Neptune increasing storm activity) and even asteroids (Ida rotational velocity speeding up due to increased solar wind pressure) where showing signs of heating up.
This personal discovery was set against the backdrop of Al Gore telling the world the Earth was getting dangerously warm, and perversely blaiming it on co2.
I remember thinking “That’s not right. Someone has to tell these people that Gore is full of crap.” And I went on the net looking to warn the public, thinking I was the only one who knew about it. Seriously.
I still get a chuckle out of how fervent I was. Such a little crusader.
It was only then that I discovered the Glen Becks, Anthony Watts, Rush Limbaughs, and Michael Crichtons, already fighting the fight.
Chrisy, here’s a little personal eye opener for you. Take out that book and turn to the Thompson’s thermometer graph. Get a mirror and hold it up to the side of the page. Then compare what you see in the mirror with the Mann hockeystick graph. The Mann graph uses bristlecone pine tree ring cores to create a climate history for the last thousand years.
Do you see the simularity?
They are one and the same.
It’s also the same graph the IPCC uses to “prove” that today is the hottest time in history.
Why are they lying to us, pretending that an inverted tree ring chronology is an ice core record?
Here’s another eye opener for you. Think about this for a minute. When was the last time you saw a tree freeze to death? Mull it over.
I’m informed that it can happen under special circumstances; if the tree’s bark is split exposing the heartwood to the cold, but it is very unusual because wood is an excellent insulator.
No matter how good an insulator the tree bark is, three months of cold would be enough to freeze a tree solid, except for one thing. Trees maintain their internal temperature just like animals do.
Can you see the truth of what I am saying? (I am going to proceed as if you answered yes.)
Now think about this. How can you use a tree ring core, set off as it is from the outside environment, insulated against the cold, using starchs and sugars to keep it’s internal temperature regulated, to create a temperature reconstruction from a millenium ago? Or even last week, for that matter.
The answer is you can’t. It’s not possible.
So why are the IPCC, Al Gore, and Michael Mann, pretending like they can?
Do you think a person or institution which will lie about one of their key pieces of evidence, is going to tell the truth about the rest of it?
I don’t. YMMV.
Sorry about mistaking you for Madeline Ostrander. It was the Yes Magazine link that threw me.
I was talking about his book “earth on the balance”. I really liked his book and it helped me to remember some of the teachings I learned as a child. I don’t know if you remember the book “St. Francis and the animals”, but I was given that book one holiday. Might have been Christmas or my birthday. I loved that book. Anyway, I grew up knowing in my heart that we as human beings have a spiritual duty to be good stewards to the earth.
One of the problems I see is that as a society we have forgotten to respect and love the earth. We, by our greed are destroying the planet and everything on it by this attitude that we can do whatever we want without a thought of the future outcome. It is like instead of being good caregivers of the planet we have become people who want to rape the planet of all its resources.
I may not be explaining this very well. I am not the best educated person in the world and have had to self teach myself.
Al Gore’s book reminded me of the teachings of St. Francis I learned as a child and helped to bring me back to the Catholic Church and to remember the good. His book was one of the first books written so I am sure that some of the information in that book is outdated and some is wrong, but the most important thing for me is that he got me thinking about am I living up to being a good caregiver and steward to the earth. The society today has fail to live up to our duty of being good stewards and caregivers to the planet so that when the generations following us inherit the earth that instead of a clean and healthy planet to live on they are going to receive a planet that is sick and dying and making them sick. The oceans are dying and the seafood that one eats could cause humans to get sick. The food that we grow in the ground many times makes us sick with the ecoli. The air they breath makes us sick and the water is being polluted so we may run out of fresh drinking water.
I have heard the name James Hansen. I have never heard him speak or read any of his writings so I don’t have an opinion one way or another. I would love to hear him interviewed sometime or even hear him speak. What I have heard though is he is a very respected scientist.
How do you explain the pictures we see of the melting ice sheets? The ice is shrinking and now we have an open passage of water and countries like us, Russia, China, Canada etc are fighting for the rights to explore oil because now because of global warming they are able to get to those places. Glaciers are melting. There is a glacier I read about in South America that is gone and the one is Spain is not to far behind. There are islands in the Pacific that all the people have to be moved because of the sea is swollowing up the island. Coral reefs are dying because of the acid levels in the ocean. Something is happening.
I just don’t think we can say that climate change is a hoax and be in denial.
Papertiger, since you brought in the name James Hansen I decided that I would see what I could find out about him. I like to be fair and not judge people. I also do not like to make up my mind about issues and people based on just hearsay.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hansen
James E. Hansen (born March 29, 1941 in Denison, Iowa) heads the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York City, a part of the Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland, Earth Sciences Division. He has held this position since 1981. He is also an adjunct professor in the Department of Earth and Environmental Sciences at Columbia University.
After graduate school, Hansen continued his work with radiative transfer models and attempting to understand the Venusian atmosphere. This naturally led to the same computer codes in modified form being used to understand the Earth’s atmosphere. He used these codes to study the effects that aerosols and trace gases have on the climate. Hansen has also contributed to the further understanding of the Earth’s climate through the development and use of global climate models.
Hansen is best known for his research in the field of climatology, his testimony on climate change to congressional committees in 1988 that helped raise broad awareness of global warming, and his advocacy of action to limit the impacts of climate change.
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For more of what they say you will have to click on the link.
He seems like he is very educated and knows the subject matter and not just some paid quack who gets on the tv. He has spoken before Congress so I would think he is reconzied as some authority in what he says, as I would think Congress checked his resume out before inviting him to speak and wouldn’t want just some quack to testify in one of their hearings.
I can see why Al Gore and others would respect him and use him as a source in their books. He sounds like he knows his stuff.
http://www.giss.nasa.gov/staff/jhansen.html
Another link to info about James Hansen. He seems like he is a man who is highly respected to me. I don’t see why you don’t respect his qualifications?
http://www.ucsusa.org/scientific_integrity/abuses_of_science/case_studies_and_evidence/james-hansen.html
Here is another link.
This is from the Union of Concerned Scientists. “Dr. Hansen pointed out that Bush administration attempts to control scientific information on climate change were not limited to NASA, and that colleagues at NOAA have told him that conditions there are, in general, much worse.10 Said Hansen, “In my thirty-some years of experience in government, I’ve never seen control to the degree that it’s occurring now. I think that it’s very harmful to the way that a democracy works. We need to inform the public if they are to make the right decisions and influence policy makers.”
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I believe he made a true statement. He seems to have the courage to speak the truth. I respect people who have the courage to fight for what is morally right.
I typed his name into youtube.
Here is one of many clips I found.
This clip is about 2 years old.
When I was 10 or so a distant cousin named Carol sent me a huge book on Astronomy for a Christmas present. I never expected a present from her. It was from out of the blue. For years it was the only hardback cover I owned.
The next year I received a telescope from Mom and Dad for Christmas. Been looking up ever since.
Al never mentioned James Hansen? In his book I mean. That’s interesting. Rather stingy of Gore, considering how Hansen’s quest has made Al so rich.
I tend toward the tightfist myself. It’s hard for me to attribute noble motives to Dr. Hansen.
But for the sake of argument, I suppose Hansen
might really believe he is saving the planet, but is just monumentally wrong. Then he’s just a bad scientist.
Here’s why. third red spot erupts on jupiter
Unlike hurricanes on Earth, these are high pressure zones. High pressure, meaning heat is pushing up material miles above the cloud deck.
You know the red thermometer thingie that pops out of the turkey when it’s done?
Jupiter is done.
Not literally cooked, but the Jovians are definitely sweating.
Someone should ask Jimmy what to do about the temperature on Jupiter.
Considering where James Hansen works …
Well, you can see why I am dubious about his motives.
When I get back from work I will do some internet research on the red spots on Jupiter. I will post what I find.
The book sounds really interesting and I can see why you treasured it. To have your own telescope how great. I have always liked to look at the stars and the night sky. I know one time, my friend who was taking a college course invivted to to go on one of their field trips and I went, as space I find to be very interesting. I had such a great time.
I am sure that James Hansen believes in what he is doing. I believe that his intention is a noble one.
I like to watch the History channel and last night they had a show about the planet earth. It is true that in our earth’s history that we have had periods of global cooling and global warming. I don’t think that anyone denies that is a natural change of temptures and that we are living in one of the warm periods of the history of the earth.
I do think though that since the industrial age and using all these fosal fuels is adding to that equation. We know that coal is killing the trees and lakes. Making people and animals sick because of the ash in the air. Coal is not a clean energy source. Blasting whole mountain ranges to remove the few crumbs of coal is evil. Why not encourage the use of renewable and clean energy sources that not only stop the effects that man is making on the climate, but also is better for the environment?
Why is it that all the people who say that climate change is not happening at a faster rate because of what we as humans are doing support the use of oil, coal, and nuclear energy and find reasons to downplay the renewable energy sources?
Let’s say for sake of discussion that you are right and that human beings have no effect on the climate or the planet. Why do so many on your side of the debate continue to want to use coal, oil and nuclear fuels that are not clean. We have the technology to use clean energy sources today. Solar, wind, geothermal, ocean etc. but yet your side of the debate says that we can’t generate enough energy and we need to continue the use of these dirty fuel sources? We do have the technology to go completely green. Why doesn’t your side join those who want to have us as a nation to switch to clean renewable energy sources.
Not only is it an environmental solution, but also a national security solution so we don’t have to continue to send money to the very countires who want to see us destroyed.
Let’s say James Hansen and the other scientists are right and the oil and coal companies who gain by people being in denial about the role of humans and the effect we are having on the climate of the earth are wrong? We continue to do nothing and continue to live as though oil and coal are clean fuels. We live in the past and ignore the future technologies that make it possible for us to move into the 21st century. Do you really think that living in the past and clinging to dirty fuels because they have so much power and money that they can buy policy and people in our government is going to be the best thing for this country?
Even if you don’t believe in Climate change being effected by men, as I do, why does your side continue to side with oil and coal and not work harder to move this country into 21st century technology that leads to energy independence and a cleaner and healthier environment?
Chrisy
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2006/02mar_redjr.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Red_Spot#Great_Red_Spot
I noticed at one part it said that the atmosphere between Jupiter and earth is very different. It says the interior of Jupitor is fluid and lacks any solid surface.
How can one compare what is happening on Jupiter to what is happening on earth. They are very different planets.
The Red spots are interesting, but so are the White spots too. Jupiter seems like a very interesting planet.
http://redspotjr.christone.net/
http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/jupiter/redspot.html
Here are the links I clicked on to learn about the Red Spots.
Let’s say for sake of discussion that you are right and that human beings have no effect on the climate or the planet.
Why do so many on your side of the debate continue to want to use coal, oil and nuclear fuels that are not clean.
We have the technology to use clean energy sources today.
Solar, wind, geothermal, ocean etc. but yet your side of the debate says that we can’t generate enough energy and we need to continue the use of these dirty fuel sources?
To answer this, I’ll have to disrupt your personal zeilgeist. You want me to do that?
Up above, you mention that people aren’t taking good care of nature. I have reason to believe this is as deeply ingrained in your mind as astronomy is in mine. Something fundamental to your psyche isn’t easily rooted up. Might be a painful operation.
Caution: Watch for falling precepts and paradigms. Reader discretion is advised.
Nature doesn’t need our help.
The country is suffering record deficits. My home state of California is broke. They are talking about somewhere between $20 and $42 billion in the red. Inevitably these costs will be extracted from the public through more taxes.
Money is an abstract, designed to make it easier for people to trade their work for someone elses work. So at the organic level deficits are a lack of work – promises that sometime in the future we are going to fix something that needs mending.
Roads develop potholes. If they are left untended, cars suspension suffers.
Dams degrade. Paint peels off of buildings, metal rusts, bridges fail – this is nature reclaiming it’s own.
When the newspaper talks about the country being 4 trillion dollars in debt this is just a scoreboard keeping track of who is winning. Right now Nature is $ 4 trillion ahead.
There’s a series on the History Channel illustrating the effect – I don’t remember the name.
It’s about what would happen if humans went extinct and how long it will take human infrastructure to fall apart afterwards.. On the show, I think they tend to be a bit conservative about the timeframe involved, but for the large part they get it right. Anything we build Nature will take apart. It’s no coincidence that 7 of the 8 wonders of the world no longer exist. Archeologists can’t even get a grip on where most of them use to be, Nature did such a thorough job of erasing them.
Most every person is in a desperate battle with the forces of nature. That’s what they do for a living. Painting houses, fixing roofs, filling potholes. For instance the weeds are taking over my garden right this minute. That’s nature being a pain in my petunias.
You think nuclear oil and coal are dirty – that somehow we are injuring nature by using it.
How can this be when oil, coal, and nuclear, are a part of nature – just like we are?
Nature rules. We are just along for the ride. Pick out the greatest ecological disasters of our time.
Chernobyl meltdown with the radiation supposed to render vast areas of the Ukraine uninhabitable. I once asked a man from Kiev how did they adjust to the new circumstances of radiation poisoning. He looked at me like I was crazy. And well he should. It was a stupid question. The authorities fenced off 18 miles surrounding the defunct power plant and let it go at that. No big fuss or bother. Ten years after, they sent in people to check the damage on wildlife. There wasn’t any. The area turned into a pristeen nature park after only ten years.
They picked out carp from the river looking for mutations and DNA damage, the thinking being that because of the eating habits of these fish, being bottom feeders they would hoover up the most radiated material, and thus be the most susceptible. The scientists found DNA damage in the fish, the wrong number of chromisomes and what not, but no mutations, and no deformities or debilitations. My personal theory, and this is just a guess, all of that extra DNA that science can’t figure out why we have it. That’s there so animals can have their DNA scrambled on occasion without going extinct. A handy trait to have when the occasional neighorhood Supernova pops off.
Probably the same reason Japanese live in Hiroshima and Nagasaki to this day.
Same thing goes for Bikini atoll where my father witnessed first hand the H bomb tests. Fourty years later —–
Healthy reefs. Healthy fish who live without the risk of being swept up in a fishing net. Radiated coconuts. I bet they taste good.
Coal and oil as dirty? Why exactly? We know they’re just chunks of sunshine resulting from plants back in the good ole days. Some coal is impregnated with sulfur but industry standards require scrubbers that remove the stuff that makes people choke or causes acid rains. The only byproduct from coal fired electrical plants is co2. My understanding of things is that if the co2 is removed this would be withholding a valuable resource from the next generation of vegetation, breaking the circle of life as it were. You wouldn’t want to do that would you?
How many windmills would it take to power New York City? 37,000 megawatts cap load to run NYC.
State of the art 415-foot next-generation wind turbine with three 130-foot blades can generate up to three megawatts of electricity when the wind speed reaches 30 mph. Costs $30 million for eight of them.
Ok
3megawatts goesinta 37,000 equals 12,333 windmills to power NY.
$30 million divided by 8 equals $3.75 million for each.
12,333 times $3.75million equals $46 billion 248 million 730 thousand dollars to buy the windmills to power NYC. (For comparison the entire budget for the state of Calif is $100 billion.)
Now lets talk about the land because you need someplace to put them. Somewhere that won’t interfere with the Kennedy compound’s scenic vista, and it has to have a lot of wind. Also it has to be semi close otherwise running feedlines will be a problem, getting right of ways and such.
What’s the price per foot for copper cable rated to carry 37,000 megawatts?
This price tag is getting steep already. Extrapolate that out to the entire country.
You know the President is getting on pretty good with the Prince of Saudi Arabia.
Has him over for tea at the horse ranch and all. I’m just saying.
But these windmills are awesome. They are as big as an office building. Awesome sight as you approach them from a distance. I wonder how long until Nature rusts them up so they are unserviceable? The article doesn’t say.
In the part where you say “if I am right” about Jupiter being abnormally heated by the Sun, thank you.
Thank you for giving me the benefit of a doubt. But I assure you, if I were able to wave my arms and cause Jupiter to break out in heat rash, they would hook up jumper cables to my ears and power the country off of that.
Little bit about the atmosphere of Jupiter.
Lots of methane. Methane you might remember is a powerful ghg. Twenty five times as powerful as co2.
1000 parts per million methane makes Jupiter an energy sponge.
But then so would be the Earth except for one thing.
Unlike what the IPCC computer models say, Earth is protected by negative feedback. If Earth heated up the same as Jupiter, 10 degrees C at 5 AU from the Sun, we would be well on our way to being a Venus twin in fact.
Here’s a disertation on it from Prof Richard Lindzen. He’s a very smart man.
I have seen the program that you are talking about on the History channel and find it very interesting.
Let me ask you a question, do you approve of Mountaintop Removal Mining which is how the coal companies mine coal? To get that coal that you personally feel is a good source of energy for America they blast off the top of the whole mountain. They are destroying one of our nations national treasures.
Instead of Mountaintop Removal Mining for coal in WV they (the people who live there) would like to build a wind farm that would bring jobs to the area and also save the mountains. Yet, the coal companies with all their money and power control the public officials and it seems the courts as well. So no wind farm but more of the evil practice of mountaintop Removal Mining.
Here are links if you are interested.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountaintop_removal
http://www.ilovemountains.org/
http://www.sierraclub.org/coal/mtr/
http://www.stopmountaintopremoval.org/
http://www.mountainjusticesummer.org/facts/steps.php
Coal is a dirty evil fuel. I will never think Coal is a clean energy source.
You talk about the Cape Cod Wind Project. Since Cape Cod is very dear to my heart and I have spent time on Cape Cod and still keep up with the news by reading the Cape Cod news online. Have you ever been to Cape Cod, MA? Do you know first hand the area that you are talking about?
I do. My ancestors on the Fuller line came over on the Mayflower and Samuel Fuller who raised my decendent Edward Fuller when his parents died the first Winter settled on the Cape in the very exact area where they want to build the wind turbins. Barnstable, MA is where they settled, so my ancestors were part of the founding Fathers of that community.
It is funny that you would mention that project because just the other day I was reading in the Cape Cod news online that a judge has made a ruling that would deny the people who live in Barnstable to determine what happens in their community on a local level. The people in that township do not want the project and since you seem to have a wrong idea of the make up of the people who live there, let me share with you. There are all different kinds of people who live there. Their are people who work hard and whose families have lived there for generations making a living fishing. There are those who make their money on the tourist trade. There are also those who like to spend the Summers there and usually have a second home that they live in from Memorial Day to Labor Day.
I haven’t been there since I moved out of MA and that was nearly 20 years ago, but after Labor Day the Cape would slow down and the locals loved it. Yet when Memorial Day hit and the population would jump up it was fun too.
You make it sound like only the rich are opposed to this project, but the truth is that locals who live there are opposed because as I understand it, because I haven’t been there to talk to the people in person that it will hurt the fishing which is already hurting.
Shouldn’t the people who live in an area determine what happens in that area? As I understand it, people are not opposed to the idea of MA building a wind project for energy and there are other places that they could build the turbins that would not hurt the economy of the area. It looks like though the court is going to allow the project to move forward even if the people who live in Barnstable feel it is going to hurt them.
It is my understanding for example that if one is to build a solar energy plant in AZ where I now live. Which we would love to have because we are hurting and it would bring jobs to our state. We have enough sun to power much of this country. Once the plant is built it will keep on bringing us energy from the sun. Sure they will have to do maintance, but the cost of maintance on let’s say a solar plant vs the cost of maintance on a coal plant is much less. The sun is going to keep shining and it is truely a clean energy. The coal because of the way Massey Coal and other large companies get it with the mountaintop removal mining is destroying all future use of the land. They are being allowed to destroy and for me that destruction is evil.
Coal River Mountain, WV: Coal River Wind Project
Yet, the coal companies have so much power that this wind project will most likely never happen.
I had no idea that West Virginians were so rich
that they can afford to pop $3million and change for 3 megawatts. Coal power costs about 4 cents a watt.
It’s not about evil. Coal power as evil is a false imperative, based on the false premise (that co2 is heating up the world), imposed by climate change lobbists, who by the way far out number and out spend coal lobbists in Washington.
Another aspect to windmill power that I didn’t touch on is it’s intermitant nature. For every watt of power added to the grid from wind, there has to be a back up watt provided by coal, oil, nuclear, natural gas, or hydropower.
Otherwise people would have their lights go out when the wind stopped blowing.
About the mountaintop getting blown off, I’d rather it weren’t if it were up to me. But I don’t own the mountain in question. If the coal company owns the mountain, and they want to blow it up, that’s there business.
Besides, we both know that environmental regulations require the coal company to put the mountain back to right when they are done.
In the meantime they provide a needed service to the region, and employment to the local community.
Since there is grass root opposition I’d wager the coal miners compromise, and use the far more dangerous shaft mining method. This is a shame too, because it means coal miners will die in accidents, cave ins, breathing in coal dust, causing hospitalizations, widows and orphans.
Open pit mining is by far the safer method. Nothing to fall on your head that way, and instead of being cooped up in a crampt hole with all that dust causing black lung, the miners are out in the fresh air.
Regardless of the method they use, I prefer keeping our money here employing Americans, to importing windmills, putting scarce money in the pockets of Dutch contractors, which when all is said and done will require coal fired backup plants anyway.
It seems like we agree that windmills are a bad idea in Mass., albeit for different reasons.
To you consider the grand canyon as destruction of the high plateau? That’s what it is.
The main difference between the destruction by river and destruction by mining with mining you have someone to blaim.
It’s the same thing though.
The good thing about mining the mountain afterwards, when it’s time to build it back up, environmentalist will have a blank tableau and gainful, useful, added value for the public, employment, putting the mountain back to right.
A positive change from marching with picket signs, don’t you think?
I don’t believe my saying coal is an evil is a false imperative. For me it is evil when a large coal company blows up the whole mountain destroying that mountain is evil. I don’t know what faith you believe and practice but as a Catholic I find that raping the land and having a disregard for the nature surrounding us is evil. We are told to be caregivers and good stewards of the land. Destroying the Mountains is not being a good steward or caregiver of the land.
Also you just can’t rebuild a mountain after it has been destroyed. I know in the Northwest that yes the loggers planted trees but it was the same.
Mountaintop removal mining is not the same thing as nature curbing out the Grand Cannyon. Nature built the mountains and man is the one destroying them. When the coal companies pull out that landscape will be like the moon and the people who have lived there and whose families lived there will not be able to make a living out of the land. Because of the greed of the coal companies destroying and taking all they could out of the area the people will be left with nothing.
The wind mill would have been good for the economy and real jobs for the people who live there. Why should the people who live there have no say what happens to the mountains there.
Yes, I think the coal companies are down right evil.
You seem to think potterville woulld be a great place to live with Mr. Potter owning everything and keeping people living in poverty and miserable while he makes more and more money. The coal companies are like Mr. Potter. I see the environmentals who are fighting to save the mountains from being destroyed by Mountain Top Removal like George who has the courage and guts to stand up to Mr. Potter even though it means he has to fight. Of course in the movies the good guy always wins, and it is a real chance that the good guys in this case might loose to the Mr. Potters of the world. I applaud them for having the courage to at least try and fight and to join the fight against evil in the world.
You say it is a false imperative. I say it is a moral duty for us to fight.
See. I told you it would be painful, rooting out the zeilgeist.
I don’t think the ilovemountain.org girl made too much of a dent on the Rock Creek community.
Out of a population of 400 she only drew 3 people, and they seemed more like opposition.
Tell me how a rural town of 400 is going to afford even one $3 million windmill, and it’s on demand back up generator, let alone cover the hills with them like dandylions?
You understand why there has to be a backup right? The wind doesn’t always blow. If some of those Neetaquared inovators were nearly as clever as they like to pretend, they would get busy inovating a battery that can store 3 megawatts of electricity, so that windmills could actually be a viable energy source.
I’m sympathetic to her objections. I am Californian after all. I have climbed the gravel slag left behind by 19th century hydraulic gold miners. Our state outlawed the practice just about when the gold ran out.
On the other hand the Trinity River still flows wild, despite the gravel booger, and the Alps are still snowcapped, with glaciers growing [not shrinking - growing (Shhh {finger pressed to lips} Don't tell anybody... except your congressman.)] and you would never think of the gravel as anything but natural, with the deer herding through the meadows, pine groves swaying, and steelhead jumping.
Further south in Sonoma, comparable swathes of hill country are cultivated in grape for wine making. Would you be objecting if these Mountains in WV were being denuded and leveled to plant grapes? Why or why not?
I can’t help thinking that in a hundred years some future enviro crusader will start a campaign to save the scenic natural beauty of Coal River gulch, home of the touristy, historic, Coal River Museum of Mining.
We are going to have to agree to disagree on this issue. I am not going to change your mind and you are not going to change my mind.
You think coal is a good source of energy and find nothing wrong with Mountaintop Removal Mining and I on the other hand find it evil. It doesn’t matter how much we try and discuss this issue we both think we are right.
Coal is evil, until the light go out.
I know. I live in California. We have some experience with the lights going out due to political incompetence.
You’ll see – unless my compatriots and I save you from yourself.
It’ll be a long shot. A forlorn hope. Wish me luck.
Yes, this princess does need saving from the evil dragon, but somehow I don’t think my prince who is destined to rescue me is you. Smiles.
I was born in California and lived there off and on through the years. I don’t like California and down right hate it, but that dislike has more to do with the PTSD than with the state itself. Here I am now in the position where I have to defend California and I dislike being in that position, because I try and spend as little time as possible there.
My dad always said that California was a leader in the world. Yes, the economy is going through a rough time. The economy is going through a bad time all over the world, but as my dad believed that Californians would find a way to always turn things around for the better, I believe that too. Your state is working on renewable energy sources and I believe could be a leader in green techonology, but that is right you don’t believe in going green.
I fight it tooth and nail.
You would be surprized what I have done individually. For instance, I shut down the global warming blog of the Sacramento Bee, “the Hothouse blog” dedicated to discussion of the politics involved, not the science or economics.
Stuart, the guy who ran the thing, sure didn’t want to deal with the science. Doubly so after he came up on my radar.
Unlike you, he steadfastly refused to engage me in debate of the merits. Imagine a blog without conflict. I mean what’s the point in that?
Oh well bygones.
My state has voted down every climate change propostion that has appeared on a general ballot.
I;’m kind of proud of them. All 34 million of them.
Toot toot
I am a fighter like you and I can respect a real fighter even if we are fighting for different things. I can respect a fighter with a heart of gold who has passion and believes he has a moral duty to fight, even if it means we may be fighting each other on certain issues.
I believe in the right of the voter. You guys voted and the people spoke. I don’t agree with trying to overturn the voice of the people because they voted in a different way that is politicaly correct. If we truly believe in a government by the people for the people and they vote on a issue we should respect that vote, but at the same time it doesn’t mean we stop fighting for what we believe in. Who knows the next time California voters will pass a cap and trade incentive Bill.
If we keep on providing people with the truth on the issue of climate change and are willing to show them that a green economy is possible by living with the new green technology and bring the costs down so that it is not so expensive as Coal and oil than I think people would switch to solar, wind, or one of the other renewable energy sources.
I watched on tv last night, they were talking about this generation of solar panals and the technology used is amazing. California is on the leading edge of the research, and I believe will be one of the future places of green technology development.
Are you against development of green technology and developing a way to become energy independent from having to inport oil from Saudi Araba and other nations who are not our friend? I believe our nations security also depends on us developing green technology so that we can become energy independent and not be at the mercy of other nations because they have the oil we need.
The science is just amazing. Green technology is here and ready to be built. In the Cape Cod Times they had a story of a new sub that is able to explore deeper into the ocean than has been done before. If they can develop such wonderful technology why can’t they develop ways to develop green renewable energy sources that make us energy independent and will be better for the environment than coal and oil.
The 21st century is here and now. Coal and Oil are the past. Renewable energy is the future.
Chrisy
Sounds like a lot of “if” in there Chrisy.
The thing you have to remember, there is no way I could shut down a newspaperblog if there were people who actually believed in Global Warming.
The public is predominantly skeptical, and I’m not just talking about conservatives or republicans.
Liberals are lukewarm to global warming too.
I think the real change came when Joe Romm started coining “severe weather” to replace the unstartling “climate change” moniker.
Even hard core eco-warriors are feeling abused by Gore and his bloated bank account.
Makes it easy for me.
I think that there has been a lot of misinformation put out and the people in the states believe the lies of the coal and oil companies that there is no such thing is climate change or that coal is a clean energy source.
People in Europe understand that Climate change is real, though instead of electing a Green party member as MEP they voted for a BNP party leader to hold a seat. I have no idea how he feels about developing renewable energy sources or climate change.
Though like everything politians promise what the voters want to hear, only tofind afterward that it was just another lie told to get elected. I grew up thinking that politics was noble, but maybe too that is just another schoolgirl dream of childhood that has no basis in the real world reality. We are told that they will fight for the environment and then given the chance will side with the large coal companies and approve 42 out of 49 new mountaintop removal mining permits. Time and time again we Greens are disappointed by those we elect. We need to elect a Green member of Congress so at least we have a voice at the political table. Someone who is not going to backdown.
You are right that you couldn’t shut down a newspaper blog if people who blogged there really believed in the message of the Green party such as climate change, developing renewable energy sources, stopping mountaintop removal mining because it is a evil practice that is destroying one of our national treasures, or that green jobs will be good for the economy. The Green party has a message that is more than just climate change, though it is a big part of our platform.
Yes, with all the misinformation out there it does make it easy on you, but have you ever thought what if you are wrong? Let’s say you are wrong and the artic is melting at a faster rate than even that we Greens say it is, Let’s say that within 10 years Polar bears are gone from the wild because all the ice caps have melted and there is no place in the wild that they can live, how will you feel?
Will you say good now we can explore the artic for gas and oil? Are will you feel that we have lost something beautiful from the face of the earth? If we overfish and kill all the fish in the oceans and the oceans are a much different place than they are now, how will you feel?
The coal and oil companies that you defend are not good stewards or caregivers of the earth. They don’t care about what they leave behind when they rape the land for their greed.
Green and renewable energy is the future. Coal and oil is the past.
I get back to we are going to have to agree to disagree because I am not going to change your mind and you are not going to change my mind. There reaches a point where the debate becomes pointless and a waste of time.
You say there is alot of misinformation from oil and coal lobbies, you mean like in Yes! Magazine?
THat is not my experience.
On my planet Al Gore has his own tv network. The newspaper, periodicals, the big three networks the history channel, the weather channel, even my Google ads, and worst of all the government, most all of them include their own section promoting global warming. Most not bothering to examine actual science, it’s all just vague, mindless, genuflection.
It’s why I run into people who swear by global warming, but have never heard of Jim Hansen.
No this repartee has been invigorating, but I agree it’s an oddly long blog entry and by your sidebar, there are other fish in your sea that need tending. The greens getting ousted in Europe seems large on your radar. I’ll leave you to it.
Parting shot: Photosynthesis (getting energy directly from the Sun) evolved before men walked the Earth, but I wonder who invented the windmill?
Ironic that they’re considered the wave of the future.
Interesting that you never mention nuclear.
Adue.